Sine Qua Non {axiom}

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For me it is not just about sex but the sense of security I have in being able to be vulnerable to someone. I just can not allow myself the luxury of giving myself up to the care of someone and allow myself to be sexually theirs, unless they can prove they can take care of my emotional needs while having a sexual relationship with them.

~ Rougedmount, to KDaddy

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The emphasis is mine.

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The floor is yours…

0 thoughts on “Sine Qua Non {axiom}

  1. NormalDeviations

    Now, the very first thing I noticed is the “be vulnerable to” phrase rather than “with” – do you see a difference there? To me, there is a key difference – neither right or wrong – between them and what the impact is.

    For me, the return – with – is more important than the the at (or to) because to me that is an indicator of security on both sides, not just the originator.

    The last part of that strikes a chord with me. It’s the defining reason I have an issue with my interpretation of swinging. A requirement – for my barometer – not an option. And not someone else’s interpretation either eh.

    1. Mrs Fever Post author

      I agree that there is a difference between with and to, though vulnerability must start somewhere. Opening up to someone, showing that person your tender wounds ~ THAT, to me, is being vulnerable to someone. And ‘to’ does not guarantee that ‘with’ will follow. (The connotation being, from your comment above, that sharing vulnerability with someone involves security and reciprocation. However, one can only be responsible for one’s *own* actions.) But the hope ~ my hope ~ is that in doing so – in revealing to someone where (and why) it hurts – those scars will be tenderly kissed… As opposed to sliced open anew.

      Yet, being vulnerable to someone means embracing the probability of pain. It is giving someone the power to hurt you. And they will hurt you. Most often, between intimates, hurt is unintentional… But it still hurts. It is the emotional connection ~ or lack thereof ~ that makes the difference when the hurt happens.

      One of the things that stood out to me {un-emphasized, for reasons of my own} is the term sexual relationship. As opposed to sexual involvement or just plain sex. All very different, yes?

  2. wildoats1962

    The start of a very interesting discussion. There are all kinds of, levels, for lack of a better term to the connection. Even the mutual vulnerability of with is not an all or nothing deal. Trusting is a process. And personally I would put more emphasis on non-sexual relations for that trust. It’s one thing to trust someone enough to have sex with them and quite another to trust them with your emotions, or your family, or your finances. A horny guy might hire a hooker, but he’s not likely to add her to all his credit cards. A horny woman might agree to casual sex, but not want the guy to know where she lives and who her kids are. I could see why swinging would be problematic. In the old days of printed magazines keywords were used to stress certain things, friendship – meaning not casual to the point of being anonymous. Sometimes anonymity is what is desired. It is also important to consider the difference between fantasy and reality. A person might have a fantasy of total surrender, or total surrender to stranger. If one visits fantasy land, one is still in charge until that fantasy moves out of one’s brain. In the 60’s they might have talked about free love quite a bit, but a lot of people were still pretty uptight. Jerry Butler was a porn actor in the 80’s and 90’s. He has retired and went back, I’m not sure what he’s doing anymore. But he wrote a book called “Raw Talent”, and in it he talks about the adult industry. Obviously the sex between actors and actresses is going to be pretty casual. But the connection between them is going to have an element of reality. They might be portraying a character, but during sex they are still having sex with that person. Sometimes they might really be into each other. Sometimes it might be just a job. During the latter times you get to see who can really act.

    It all starts somewhere though. Anytime there’s going to be trust between people someone has to be first. Also true in friendship, but the path to friendship is usually more gradual. Not always though, it happens when a stranger risks their health/life to help a stranger. I recall a story about an uninjured person helping a victim during the Boston Marathon bombing. Someone risks their life to save you, it’s going to make an impression. The injured person might not have any option other than trust. But for some it still won’t be easy. Trusting your emotional well being to someone is definitely a leap of faith. Looking before you leap may or may not help depending on what you see.

    I’m rattling on. Time to go

    1. Mrs Fever Post author

      Trust is… A cornerstone of intimacy. It is something that is built between people but that requires a vulnerability of self. And, as I pointed out to Dave above, there is a difference between sex and sexual relationship. Perhaps the strength of a relationship depends upon the willingness of both parties to trust one another with their vulnerabilities. Which is predicated, to some degree, on emotional bonds. All very risky.

      As you say, sometimes anonymity is what is desired. Anonymity involves its own risks though. Thus, perhaps, the allure. Yet there is safety in anonymity as well. The nature of selective communities (online, primarily) being an amalgamation of both.

      Anytime there’s going to be trust between people someone has to be first.

      Thus, the phrasing “be vulnerable to” makes sense to me. And that first step is scary. Even with someone who seems to have all the makings of a Safe Place To Land, it takes a lot of courage to Jump Off The Cliff.

  3. MS

    I’ve been mulling over this since I saw it come up in my RSS reader yesterday. It’s given me some stuff to think about, and it echoes the advice you gave me about eschewing sexual relations until I get my shit sorted out. Makes sense.

    I’ve had sex with people where I’ve felt vulnerable, and have had sex where I did not. The latter is pretty unrewarding, and feels very cerebral. My emotions just don’t get mixed in, and I am way too up in my thoughts to really indulge in the moment. It is indeed quite scary to trust someone to allow yourself to open up past that, and the more I think about the consequences of sleeping with someone honorably (ie. sleeping with them without secretly seeing it as a one-night stand), the more “shitshitshit” feelings I have when I think about getting together with someone again, and the more careful I want to be before doing so.

    Your choice of words also reminds me of the discrepancy you wrote about “being desired” versus “feeling desired” — still mulling over that one.

    1. Mrs Fever Post author

      There is a such a huge difference to me, as pointed out in my responses above, between sex and sexual relationship. And your description of the former being more cerebral makes sense.

      Everyone is different, and at different times in our lives we seek different things. For where you ~ you ~ are in your personal journey right now, getting your “shit sorted out” is critical before embarking on a sexual relationship. Because (as you are well aware) sex for you ~ good sex, sex that is charged and connective and raw and real ~ requires an emotional investment. You could ‘easily’ (airquotes) find a sexual outlet or twelve. What you need though, at this time in your life, is not a series of one night stands. That would be like opting for a meat cleaver as a surgical tool.

      What you say about “indulging in the moment”, when there is an emotional connection, strikes a chord with me. It is an indulgence to open up to someone ~ and connect with someone ~ so fully. Not in a fleeting, chocolate-covered sugar-coated kind of way. Rather, it is indulgent in that it is gratifyingly extravagant; it is the recognition of another’s humanity, reflected in one’s self; it is amity, depravity, and privilege rolled into one.

      1. MS

        To be completely honest, of all the times I’ve ever had sex, the sex with Rachel was the most open I ever felt and was by far the most connective, consistently — it sort of redefined my expectations about sex. Up to that point, I believe I had told some friends that “sex was meh for me”.

        It’s unfortunate that the rest of that relationship was so fucked up. :/

        One of the things I’ve been sorting through is the reasons of why I keep craving sex. When I feel like I’m not craving it anymore, I may entertain the possibility of a less-serious sexual relationship.

        1. Mrs Fever Post author

          Ah, yes… The craving. Gasoline to fire, and the addiction is consuming.

          And isn’t it interesting that even though the sex was so connective with her, there was such a disconnect in all the other aspects of your relationship? Say vs Do.

          You’re still processing, my friend. It won’t be easy, and it won’t be fast. You’ve only been on your own a short time; give yourself some breathing room. Stretch. Feel the ground under your feet. Center. You’ll thank yourself for it in the long run.

          Hugs, you.

          1. MS

            Hugs, Feve. Thanks.

            Things are starting to settle down with me. I had a very productive therapy session and my therapist felt like I was saying and doing some things that were things that are “productive” (in the sense of “progressing” and “processing”). My emotions are tempest at times, but I feel like they’re at least contained to a teapot now.

            Being able to hold my ground with Rachel has been challenging but becomes easier.

  4. wildoats1962

    A little over 20 years ago I developed a friendship with a guy I met on a BBS. We conversed online for quite awhile before I actually met him in person. One time while we were talking I made the comment that at times I wish I didn’t have a sex drive. He was quite startled and rather astounded. How could I make such a statement? My answer, also a question, how often does your sex drive cause you to make a decision that you wouldn’t make if you didn’t feel any attraction/repulsion? In that sense I can understand wanting to be like a little kid, devoid of lust and looking for fun. He totally disagreed. I asked him about his recent divorce {his wife shot him for paying too much attention to someone else at a party}. Now he did remind me that he and his ex were able “Work past their differences” and she did really feel bad about shooting him. I had met his ex and their daughter so I had seen them interact. I also know that he was in a wheelchair ever after too. That becomes significant in that the sex drive doesn’t go away if certain parts no longer work. I had thought the presence of a sex drive combined with the lack of being able to feel/use those parts would be extremely frustrating. He agreed that it was frustrating, but not enough to not want the desire. I had recently broken up with someone, they broke up with me actually, and I was angry with my own decision making abilities for getting started with that person. I felt that my desire was clouding my reason. Our conversations were an exchange of views, not an attempt to convince the other person that they were wrong. You might feel a particular way if you have wrong information, but feelings are feelings. They can be misunderstood, they can be caused by a misunderstanding, they can be denied, but you really can’t say feeling is wrong. On some level he may have given me food for thought about having feelings, but I still think an awful lot of people make bad decisions based on lust.

    Lust can also cause memorable experiences. He and his girlfriend {not the ex} listened with rapt attention to my tales of the Sysop of the Scoreboard of Indiana. They both were also of the opinion that I should have accepted the offer of watersports.

    Meandering through the wild rice, sowing oats

    1. Mrs Fever Post author

      :: blink ::

      I’m having a hard time getting past the whole ‘his wife shot him’ thing…

      I remember reading an article about Christopher Reeve, after he’d become paralyzed, and he and his wife talked openly about the fact that they still had a sex life, and that his desire was still there. The reptilian brain is an interesting thing; the body can still respond in…unique…ways. Even when physical sensation is impossible to feel.

      It seems to me that the drive/desire, combined with the inability to do anything about it, would make for a unique sort of chastity experience. No lockup required.

      I can see how lust could be a problem. Thinking with the wrong head is something Zaphod Beeblebrox might do, easily and often. When humans do it, it usually results in driving in the wrong direction; it’d be easy to steer your life off course if you did it too often.

      And here I thought you did participate in watersports. So, with the Sysop, was it a matter of who was giving and who was receiving?

      1. wildoats1962

        I didn’t participate in watersports THAT TIME. I was simply too tired. It might sound rather selfish, but I prefer to receive. Giving does require the ability to relax at a time when relaxing can be difficult. In some ways I wish I had had the energy. It isn’t all that often one can find a donor.

        It’s kind of funny how moods change. At times I regret thinking with the wrong head. Which head is the wrong one depends on mood. There are days when I think if I could go back to when I was young and relive those times with todays knowledge I would savor my innocence. There are other days when I recall missed opportunities and I would be ten times as depraved.

        1. Mrs Fever Post author

          Deprivation of depravity. Or vice versa; emphasis on the vice. 😉

          And I don’t know that anyone is ever truly innocent. It is more a matter of how much (or how little) knowledge one acquires, how quickly, and under what circumstances.

          Being able to relax when relaxing is…difficult…is…well, difficult. It is so very hard to undo a lifetime’s worth of training (for lack of a better word) and just.let.go. Even when the desire is there. Or perhaps, most especially when desire is there.


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