Be prepared for an emotional reaction.
Your content-related thoughts, questions, comments, and conversation are welcome.
Be prepared for an emotional reaction.
Your content-related thoughts, questions, comments, and conversation are welcome.
Wow, what a story, feel for the guy…
My gut twisted, reading his experience.
Sort of like the proverbial frog in boiling water, I think. Or perhaps, given the speed, a screaming lobster in boiling water would be a more appropriate analogy.
My heart goes out to him. To them.
Peace, I think, will be a long time coming.
As always, so many things are better in fantasy than in reality. Reality is complicated.
Apparently, for him/them, communication is complicated. A simple “no” was never stated on his part. When he wrote this, he was responding emotionally to events that had passed, and I understand that. But why not respond rationally to events as they are unfolding, in order to *prevent* the fallout? Considering that he did not communicate well, and also considering that this “decision” was made under the influence of alcohol: Perhaps, more than anything, what he is/was experiencing is guilt.
Yes, reality is complicated. And the waters are only more muddied when alcohol is thrown into the mix.
I know. He says early on that they should discuss this when sober, but things spin out of control without him putting his foot down. Either the other people did not respect his wishes, or he did nothing to make his point–probably plenty of both.
While unfortunate, he is dealing with the consequences of his actions. Unfortunately for him and his wife, they made that decision without a discussing it first and drunk (or at least the women were). He is dealing with the fallout of his feelings instead of thinking through the facts. There is no proof of concept that his wife doesn’t love him and from his words, he still loves her. They made a decision that didn’t add value to their relationship. Lesson learned. I agree w/ The Varied God … so many things are better in fantasy than in reality. Hopefully, they will get through this and come out better for it.
Re: There is no proof of concept that his wife doesn’t love him…
While Love and Respect often affect one another, they do not always go hand-in-hand. The same can be said for Friendship. The way he views/experiences all three has been affected. The question(s) he is/was asking himself are emotional ones, and my guess is because he has a history with his wife in which certain *actions* have been interpreted as *proof* (facts) of love.
They made a decision that didn’t add value to their relationship.
They all made decisions. Big ones and small ones. He has to deal with his own, first and foremost. Both with what he chose to do, and what he chose NOT to do. And what he did not do, unfortunately, was say no. A decision for which he is/was suffering consequences.
This accounting was written a month ago. Have they “gotten through it”? Will they? It’s hard to know. Regardless of whether they do or not, my hope is that he takes a long hard look at who he is and what he wants, and that he learns how to better communicate his needs/desires in the future.
Yes, communication is key. Preferably sober. 🙂
It is illegal to drive under the influence of mood-altering drugs (yes, alcohol is a drug), yet people make life-changing *impaired* “decisions” under the influence on a regular basis.
I am extremely strict in my stance on alcohol consumption. While a lot of people don’t “get” it… Let’s just say I am not ‘a lot of people’. And the enforcement of my No Drinking rule has saved me the kinds of regrets that ‘a lot of people’ have.
Well, one could say that they might have made a different decision if they were sober. And you are correct, people make life-changing decisions under impairment all the time. Life and decisions can be hard and drinking/drugging while making those decisions leads to a lot of regret.
And no, you are not like a lot of people. You are fabulous. 🙂
In my experiences, this is typical. As it’s been said, they both made choices – he could have said no at any time – and he should have said no and called a stop to things when he started feeling all assed-out while his wife was having the time of her life (probably). Doesn’t really matter at this point what they coulda/shoulda done, right? Now it’s about dealing with the aftermath and, wow, his reaction is classic.
Mrs. Fever, I noticed just now, said, “They made a decision that didn’t add value to their relationship.” My question is, um, from whose point of view would this be true? Maybe it’s just me but while it’s obvious that HE doesn’t think it added any value, there’s no dialog that would suggest or imply that SHE didn’t think it added any value and, if her actions are any indication, I’d have to say that since she had fun, it was added value… at the time, anyway.
Shit like this always seems like a good idea at the time… until it happens… and now you have a huge mess on your hands. And while the relationship as a whole may not be badly damaged, you have one of the team taking a really hard, if not typical for this situation, emotional hit and now it remains to be seen how this is going to affect them going forward. Ideally, you hope that they can make it through this… but their reality might be very different.
All I can do is shake my head over this one; I’ve seen this happen to others way too many times…
Re: They made a decision that didn’t add value to their relationship.
Those were The Green-Eyed Geisha’s words, followed by my response.
The fact is that she told him, once sober, that if he could handle it, she’d want to do it again. So she obviously experienced things ~ both physically and emotionally ~ differently than he did. And while the fact of What Was cannot be changed, I sincerely hope they delve into the *why* of what happened, as well as the reason(s) behind their decisions and subsequent responses. Understanding those things (as individuals and as a couple) and actively communicating them will definitely affect What Will Be.
You say you find this reaction typical. To me, that is a sad commentary on the lack of successful communication between partner(s). It is not typical of my own experience. But then again, I have rules, and I enforce them. Number one being sobriety. Alcohol does NOT grease my wheels; it slams on my brakes. This story is a perfect example of why.
Oh, I agree; the lack of success communication and alcohol played heavily in this situation. You wanna get juiced to the gills and do something you’ve never done before? Talk about it first; agree across the board with it while understanding the severe ramifications and consequences of your actions.
Then, if it’s all good, get juiced if ya need something to relax, get naked, and handle your business.
Mrs. Fever, I’ve seen so many couples go through what the author went through and it’s usually devastating to the relationship. Even without booze being involved, I’ve seen them make the decision to do this and, often, without fully realizing how it’s gonna affect them…and something like this happens. A lot of men think they can handle this situation and, at least in their heads, think they can handle seeing their woman getting fucked nine ways to Sunday.
What you think is one thing… but reality is a stone cold bitch. I’ve always wondered why it’s always men who have the most problems with this situation…
Yes, I said it didn’t add value and stick by those words. I guess one could say that his wife had a good time and maybe she feels the experience is valuable but I am thinking that watching your husband go though the feelings and fall-out, I would weigh value and actual outcome, wisely.
Forever an optimist, one could also say that the value was learning how to communicate, making thoughtful decisions as a couple before taking action, has learning value. But damn, wouldn’t you rather learn those lessons without the pain?
They were each impacted as individuals, and their relationship (which is a living thing, separate from each of them, but shared between them) was impacted as well. They made decisions as individuals, not as a couple. The needs of the individual(s) and the needs of the relationship are very different things.
To be clear: I don’t disagree with your statement. And I appreciate that you stand by your point of view. Naming you as the author of those words was done out of respect. I give credit where credit is due. 🙂
As far as making thoughtful decisions as a couple before taking action is concerned… Therein lies the crux of the whole problem, I think. And while it would be preferable to learn life’s hard lessons without experiencing pain, sometimes ~ due to poor communication skills or poor decision-making or even in spite of excellent communicating and perfect planning ~ sometimes, that’s just not possible. Sad, but true.
Oh, I didn’t take any disagreement from you. 🙂 But thanks for clarifying.
This by far was one of the most thought-provoking posts I have seen a looooong time. I am going to check the thread often to see if there are any updates.
Hmmmm…I’m going to have to ponder this before I write anything worth a shit other than surface impressions.
Read the comments thread on the original post, if you haven’t already. It’s lengthy, but there are some gold nuggets there worth pulling out if you’re interested.
There are probably multiple spinoff posts ~ series, even ~ that could be written in response to this guy’s experience. I look forward to reading whatever you choose to share.
I read the comments there and on your post. I agree there is a lot of material to mine. Close to a 7 part series if I am feeling froggy. I’m actually interested in your thoughts some of which you shared in replies and some of which I know from prior convos.
As I’m sure you’ve gleaned from my comments here, there are a few meta themes in this tale that are pretty obvious.
One thing that nobody commented on in the original post thread (at least not that I remember reading) ~ or here ~ is something that I think is really important. And it leads to a key topic of discussion when planning (which requires *sober* communication) and working out the dos and don’ts between all parties:
The author says, “I want to burn that bed.”
My husband and I have a firm rule that nobody plays in our bed (or even in our house) but US. Because even with the most meticulous planning and total transparency about wants/desires/limits, etc… Things can go wrong. A good situation can turn bad. And I never want my space tainted with that kind of negative energy.
I know most people take the opposite view: “If it’s my space, I can control it,” etc. (I do not recall your exact reasoning, but I believe you and Barb are of this mindset, yes? 🙂 )
Other people only use hotels.
Still others have a designated play space either inside or outside their homes.
There is no “right” answer in regards to where people play. Only what’s right for a specific individual/couple/group. So my point in all this is not to take a position on the Where, but rather to bring up the fact that Where We Play is just as important as Who We Play With. It’s one of those things that can have an earth-shaking impact (i.e, he wants to burn the bed now), but often the tremors aren’t felt until the emotional Richter Scale registers 9.7 or higher.
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I feel sorry for the guy, I really do. He wasn’t wanting to go there and because he wasn’t able to have sex with the other woman it was a lose/lose situation and embarrassing and all that. Still, I feel like he is making it out to be a way bigger deal than it should be. This shouldn’t be enough to totally fuck up their marriage. He should be able to forgive and move on.
However, I’m looking at this as someone who has had some time to explore swinging and the emotions that it causes and understand a lot more. He hasn’t so can’t totally be held at fault for overreacting. His wife should have been more proactive about making him feel good and less insecure afterwards but of course she was wasted and that was a problem.
A lot of guys seem to have issues with keeping it up on their first time swinging. Someone needs to let this poor guy know that is normal. He also needs to realize that her asking him to fuck her is just sex and not as huge a deal as he is taking it to be but I know for men that is hard. I still feel like his wife could do a lot more to make him feel better but at the same time he is clearly riddled with madonna/whore complex that makes him think her doing that and enjoying it will “ruin” everything.
Like I just commented on Kdaddy’s blog about this, the Producer had issues getting it up the other night when we did a couple swap too- with the other woman. He just wasn’t as excited or turned on by her, which is why things ended up with both men on me and HER seeming to feel left out. That’s not good either. Still, thankfully, he’s not mad at me for enjoying and getting into sex with the other man. I did what I could though, to make sure HE didn’t feel any less because of it and let him know how much I still wanted HIM. I wish the other guy had done that for his wife and hopefully he did afterwards.
It does take awhile to get in the mindset that this kind of stuff is okay and isn’t something I think people should just jump into the way they did, with no discussion beforehand. She should have felt him out a little more and made sure he wanted to go there too, but then again, you have the drunkenness. While it’s stupid to do things like that drunk it’s also gotta be understandable that she wasn’t all there and her husband should understand THAT. I get that it’s really hard though.
I don’t think it’s as simple as that. He says, at the end of the original posting, “What did I do to us? I feel like its all my fault somehow.” He’s placing blame on himself for allowing this situation to happen in the first place, which is then compounded by the myriad of emotional responses he’s having to work through. So forgiveness is important, yes. In my opinion, however, the first person he needs to forgive is himself.
It would be interesting to hear her side of this story. When couples know each other well, and are ‘tuned in’ to one another, shared sexual experiences have a much more positive impact. Regardless of who did what with whom. I can’t help but think that the lack of ability to ‘read’ one another in this situation ~ regardless of the influence of alcohol ~ is indicative of larger problems in the relationship.
Unfortunately, this is a common occurrence.
One thing I found interesting, both in the author’s retelling as well as in the comments thread, is that there was a general consensus amongst the males that having an FMF threesome was okay, but that anything involving another man was somehow… Shock! Horror! What do you mean, she enjoys penetrative sex?!? WHAT?????
Um, yes. I have multiple orifices and can have multiple orgasms. Why wouldn’t I want another man? Duh.
Double standards abound. Sigh.
Yeah, you have a point about their relationship possibly already having some issues. It sounds like she was being awfully inconsiderate of him, even with being drunk, so that is very possible. Maybe deep down he knows that and that is why it is affecting him so badly on an emotional level.
It’s hard to know. It’s one freeze-frame on the film reel of his life, and we only have access to *his* camera’s view, so to speak. What came before, and what came after? That is information we may never have. They might not have gone into the situation with issues (I love that word 😉 ), but there are so many red flags strewn throughout his accounting that it’s hard to believe otherwise.
Thank you for your comments. I appreciate your insights. 🙂
I got here via Kdaddy;s blog – thought I should get a clue before I commented on his but …
I could not even finish reading that, I mean I didnt have too – seen it so many times before – when it starts happening it is so hard to say ‘stop’ and ‘no’ for a lot of people because they see their partners having so much fun and no one wants to be the party pooper.
Heart breaking that was.
It is difficult for some people to express themselves verbally when it comes to saying “stop” or “no.” Which is why everything ~ and I do mean E V E R Y T H I N G ~ should be discussed ahead of time. While sober. It’s why limits are set, why safe words exist, why permissible activities are clearly defined, and why regularly checking in with your partner(s) at regular intervals throughout play time is so important. It is also why a lot of people stick to Same Room Sex or other ‘soft’ swinging activities, especially to start.
I feel for the guy. His pain is/was palpable. I can’t help but wonder how he and his wife are doing now.
I have seen couples that have talked it over till they were blue in the face, they had all the rules and everything set – and this still has happened – it is not just a guy thing or a girl thing. I know of two couples personally that have ended in in divorce – one moment of this can lead to a whole lot of heartache which was probably why I didn’t make it through the whole entry.
As my husband says ‘you can not unsee something you just saw’
I have no idea what your experiences are, as I said I came here from someone else’s blog, so I have not yet had the pleasure of reading yours but because of your link I did write my husband an email tonight to remind him that I am awfully proud of us and unfortunately it might have just been dumb luck but we managed. Not that I needed this man’s pain to say it but it sure did make me feel something…
Wow, lots of comments, opinions, observations, etc. In one sense we are all individual snowflakes {some of us are just the flakes part} and yet there is also a certain amount of empathy, and if not a commonality of experience a commonality of what ifs. Communication skills vary greatly, not everybody can clearly communicate mixed emotions, and coupled with that the person might not be clear in their own mind. Self doubt and self blame is very evident in that guys account. I confess to speed reading and scanning a lot of comments but I did notice the number of people who have seen this before. I’ve always been an introspective egghead who overthinks everything. My wife is not introspective at all, and gets very irritated if I try to get her to think about and describe her feelings. There are many things I’ve figured out about her preferences that she didn’t realize until I specifically described what I thought was the attraction. An example, we both like watching porn. She has certain favorites that really get her going. I noticed that the scenes that appealed most to her were the ones with the most vocalization. I started looking for movies with actors and actresses that were more vocal. She really got into those. Personally, I could get just as much enjoyment watching them on mute, but that’s me. Differences in preferences don’t mean a lack of caring. Preferences might change, overall appetite might change, especially as people age, it doesn’t mean the caring stops. Neither of us gets jealous, but I don’t feel a sense of “Ownership” of her and she doesn’t seem to feel that she owns me. A lot of people feel that strong sense of possessiveness. Their partner is THEIRs. That extends beyond sex. It also impacts how they socialize, how they react to ANY encroachment on their space as a couple. I have seen that, often. A common example would be when they no longer hang around with their “Single” friends. Wow, I’m rattling on again. No you can’t unsee things. Yes you need to talk about things while sober. Taking things slow is a very good idea. Probably a good idea to have a plan B if things start going in ways that not everyone is enthusiastic about.
I agree. HOWEVER, I find it a bit…off…that he was able to tell the other woman that he was hurting, but couldn’t express that to his own spouse. I also find it suspect that his wife claims not to remember anything, but that she would like to do it again because she enjoyed it. If she truly doesn’t remember, how does she know she enjoyed it? Perhaps she says she doesn’t remember because she thinks it will ease things somehow, since he’s obviously experiencing (as of this posting) mixed emotions about the event, but to me it looks like a deliberate convolution of the truth. I think that changes things from A Minor Misunderstanding to A Communication Clusterfuck.
Hello, fellow egghead. :]
Perhaps. But there is much to be said for commonality of experience. I have very few single friends, not because of any possessive instincts toward my spouse, but because there is a sense of ‘s/he gets it’ when relating to other married people. Marriage, quite frankly, is a concept that most single people don’t grasp. Plus, social groups change as life circumstances evolve. When I was single, I had a lot of single friends. When I got married, I lost common ground with most of those single people. And when the once-single folks wed, further microcosms appeared. The Career-Minded, The Breeders, etc.
It *does* amuse me when a married woman expresses jealousy over the way their spouse spends his time (I don’t hear this complaint from married men, interestingly enough), and who he spends that time with. I have very few female friends, but one of them was recently lamenting her husband’s over-attentiveness to a female co-worker. She was perfectly happy to create OMG Scenarios in conversation with me, but when I asked her, “Have you talked to him about it? And how it makes you feel?”, she looked at me as though I’d just told her to swallow lead-based paint.
Communicative Conundrums.